UK Govt UFO Investigator EXPOSES the Dark Side of Disclosure

Video Transcript

welcome back everybody to another episode of hard TRS podcast I'm your host Ashen Forbes today I have another very special guest I have Nick Pope Nick Pope is a uh a UFO investigator who has worked with the British government the equivalent of the dod and researched the UFO phenomenon for many decades so Nick thank you very much for being on my show today thank you for having me can you quickly just go through and uh clarify your background for some of my viewers who might not be familiar with you was I right in that you've been kind of investigating this phenomenon for uh several decades and related to the British government yes I actually uh was a civilian employee for the UK Ministry of Defense which as you said is the British equivalent of the dod here in in the United States um I had a 21-year career with them actually I did a lot of postings in that time so I moved around a fair bit in terms of subject matter my time officially looking at the UAP issue was 1991 through to 1994 but subsequent to that of course I've kept up an interest in a private capacity and I now comment on this subject quite a lot in the mainstream media for example but my my government experience of it was 91 to 994 and what did you think about the UFO phenomena before you did that versus after you started investigating how did it CH how did your perception change if it did well I didn't really think about UFOs or UAP as we call them in government at all before I had that particular job um I obviously intellectually was aware of the UFO mystery but frankly that was about it I had no particular interest or belief in it so I just approached it when I was as to do this I just approached it as I would approach any new posting in the ministry of Defense in other words my my aim was to do the job to the best of my ability and hopefully to get a promotion out of it which I did in the end but uh yeah I so I really knew very little about it had no strong beliefs or opinions either way and then afterwards I think it was something of an eye opener because I I think I I went in sort of thinking well UFOs I don't know Steven Spielberg Close Encounters of the Third Kind something like that I came out with this I guess knowledge that wait a minute you know it's not all just sci-fi or crazy conspiracy talk there's there's a sort of significant statistically significant proportion of these things over the years not just in the UK but in the US in many countries that have had a forly constituted program to look at this a statistically significant proportion of these things um you know did suggest something tangible something more than just misidentifications hoaxes or delusions and something where we consistently had speeds Maneuvers and accelerations that that made I I don't know The Cutting Edge of our Aerospace Tech look like kids toys and and made even us fairly skeptical conservative-minded Folks at the ministry of Defense a little bit perturbed about all this is that why they had you investigating it is that we knew something was going on but we had to figure out what's its origin what's the nature of it what's the physics and science of it was that kind of you what you were tasked with or was it more in terms of like what the dangers might be to like civilian aircraft and stuff like that or a combination of both it was a little bit of both actually and I was I should say I was not the first person to have this job by a long chalk I mean um we we had sightings that actually went back to the second world war but in terms of when we had actually set up a formal program to look at this that was 1953 so obviously many different people had done that job over the years sometimes the military had the lead sometimes civilian uh employees like myself had the lead it didn't really matter where the the work was embedded but what we did was essentially two things firstly we tried to understand the phenomenon itself holistically you know what what are we dealing with here and yes part of that is obviously trying to to do a threat assessment see if there is evidence of any threat and then you know what if anything can we do about it but the other side of it in in many sense I guess the day-to-day running of it was more about the individual investigations we got two or 300 reports each year and although we did some classified work we were actually unlike for example atip or Osa we were actually a public facing program so we had more in common with the old Project Blue Book than perhaps we did with the more modern programs and and so you know we weren't our existence was not a secret members of the public would contact us with their sightings and although obviously we had our own pilots and radar operators seeing things and tracking things which was very interesting I I would say 90% plus of the cases we had came from the public so a lot of a lot of what I was doing was to try and get answers on those cases trying to trying to correlate it with things we either knew about or could find out about whether they were military aircraft exercises or some sort of astronomical phenomenon or meteorological phenomenon so what are you what's your opinion and you know just to keep to put a disclaimer on this I'm not going to like hopefully people won't hold you this people's opinions can change but right now where would you lean in terms of what you've seen and learned in terms of the origin of these rare exceptions where there's something anomalous going on do you think that it's advanced technology that that that we have or do you think it's alien in nature do do you think it's something more exotic than that it could be all of the above it could be none of the above well I say none of the above no let me take that back because clearly a proportion of sightings consistently over the years have been attributable to people seeing and and misident if Ying secret prototype aircraft missiles and drones so so that that is certainly one explanation and of course as I say most of these things turn out of course to be misidentifications but if you're just ring fencing the ones where we've thrown out the the conventional explanations because they just don't don't marry out with the facts uh then yeah some of those are prototype div devices but they're ours and when I say ours I mean terrestrial they're either British American or they might be operated by an adversary of course and we've had a big debate about this in in the last few years we had the Chinese spy balloon of course we've had the recent drone incursions and although I've seen some statements which are quite dismissive of of the New Jersey drones there is certainly or was I think it's still current a US Government assessment that some of the Drone incursions in the UK and Germany were probably attributable to an adversary and in that case it's almost certainly Russia and I say that because of course the Drone activity you know you just look at the date the Drone activity ramped up almost literally the same week that the UK authorized the use of long long range um Munitions like Storm Shadow not just against Battlefield Targets in Ukraine but against Targets in in Russia mainly in the cured you think yeah do you think then that we and maybe Russia China are like working on some advanced technology that we're misrepresenting as UFOs or that maybe there was technology that we reverse engineered that we've got flying around out there that people are identifying cuz it doesn't seem like that drone situation was like aliens whatever it was and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there was adversarial technology floating around we're not seeing like I no one's really coming out and taking credit for it and there is this long history of like supposed reverse engineering in the UFO phenomenon so what's your take on all that well I think it's a given that at any particular point in time there is Aeros space Tech out there that is maybe 10 15 possibly 20 years ahead of anything that's publicly acknowledged or declared anything that you're likely to see on the evening news or or flying at any of the big air shows around the world I think that's a given whether that is our own technology or whether some of it is is I mean clearly some of it is our own Tech there's there's no getting away from the fact that we're pretty smart and we're pretty good at figuring things out and we've got some scientific and engine ing Geniuses who who can do a lot of stuff whether any of this is wholly or partly derived from anything back engineered reverse engineered from recovered alien technology I don't know I don't rule it out and and certainly myself and other colleagues at the ministry of Defense even did not rule out the Extraterrestrial hypothesis still don't equally of course we hear a lot of speculation about other potentially exotic non-terrestrial but not necessarily alien explanations for this and recently for example we've had people like David grush pivot from terms like extraterrestrial to nhi non-human intelligence which which is a kind of I guess more open term that doesn't close off other possibilities such as for example something from other dimensions or even and we've seen a ramping up of of the whole religious narrative recently which is very interesting even something you know that we would characterize as as Gods Devils Angels or demons well so here's the problem I have with it is that I agree the the military is more advanced but I think the level of technology that we would be dealing with here related to nhi would be something that's more advanced than tener 20 years you know being 10 or 20 years more advanced on making Rockets it's still going to be a rocket we're looking at something that's just from conventional mainstream academic perspective of physics is define the laws of physics how can uh a UFO some how can something hover like this in place let alone move around like this with no inertia and theoretically move off at extremely high velocities that would seem impossible uh for any conventional material to do do that and I think that those like you know they call them the five observables uh in the UFO field we're seeing stuff like that that seems like that's not 10 or 20 years more advanced so this is the part where I'm pushing back and saying well it should be pretty obvious whether or not it's something that's terrestrial technological advancement in nature uh you know in explanation versus like okay this is just beyond like what you know well Way Beyond what anything in the public is aware of so I guess I'm saying like you know have we figured that level that leap of Technology out secretly and we're covering that up or you know is that possible or does it require some extra terrestrial explanation or you know maybe not necessar like you said nhi there's a lot of different explanations of nhi which I think can mean stuff to like ancient civilizations um I guess what I'm trying to get at is like do we have does that level technology exists that's that's beyond what we currently accept and understand right now from the mainstream perspective and who has it the short answer is I don't know because I wasn't read into or onto any of those programs um if this technology exists I'm convinced that it's it's on a very close hold somewhere in the United States and not withstanding the special relationship between the UK and in the US I wasn't cleared for that or or read on to those programs as I say I have heard from people who I know you know they are who they say they are they did what they said they did I've heard that these these Technologies exist but I've not been able to verify that independently um I but I I agree on the point I I think it might be impossible for us to figure out if we have this technology I go back actually your your point 10 or 15 years you could understand that but but anything more it becomes almost impossible and I I've heard various people use the analogy of of if you could send a smartphone I I don't know 10 15 20 years back in time and it ended up at at the Apple building they they would kind of be gushing over but they would know what it was and they'd probably be able to figure it out but if you sent it back 50 years 100 years probably not and if you sent it back 10,000 years it would be a flat shiny magic rck so if we have this tag unless I mean I think it's it's again in in a universe nearly 14 billion years old there might be civilizations a billion years ahead of us and we wouldn't be able to figure that out I mean we might you know using that smartphone analogy we might be able to figure out Tech that was I don't know 50 years ahead but anything else and I think it begins to break down in terms of of you know it becomes more like trying to explain quantum physics to a chimpanzee with us being the chimpanzees I mean in other words impossible and then I would say what what do people think statistically the chances are if we interact with another civilization or civilizations um in a 14 billion year old universe that we would just happen to stumble across one only 50 years or less more advanced than us I I would think that was statistically very unlikely therefore even if we had the tech I'm not sure we could figure it out it's interesting and it's funny it may be you that I actually got that original thought and thought that's a really great point in terms of thinking why are we thinking that like we are the most advanced civilization on the Block may be civilization's way more advanced than we are and way older um and than we are now I this is one kind of twist that I've put on it just theory that I've thrown out there is that maybe it's not like the thing that I disagree with the most when anyone brings it up is this idea that we can't understand some property of the universe like quantum mechanics you bring it up you can't explain quantum mechanics to a chimp but I would say in theory if I were to go back in time to cavemen times you know given enough time I could explain things like quantum mechanics I could get them caught up to speed maybe it would take Generations but it could happen I would argue and that's my thing about physics is that there is no laws of physics that we can't understand I think we get too stuck in that our view of the universe is based on what the mainstream academic view of physics is like general relativity etc etc but whatever these UFOs are doing that are flying around they challenge that because our general view of Relativity would say wait where's the where's the fuel for this thing there's no fuel here right um but that doesn't mean it's something beyond our comprehension I mean we live in the same reality as the aliens live in so I would say that we should be able to figure out now here's my point is that what if it's not a situation where it's this like linear progression where you have to be this Advanced to understand this level of techn ology where it's more of just like hurdles once you jump over the hurdle and you figure out fire now you get to where we're at where you can shoot Rockets up into the sky but let's say there's another hurdle where the the aliens or the other non-human intelligence civilizations are more advanced they've reached this hurdle this other this technology breakthrough and then any civilization that reaches that now you've reached warp drives wormholes free energy Etc what if there was a situation like that like how would that change the the perspective of the universe would that make it look more like there's a Galactic Federation and everybody achieves this level like in Star Trek or something like that oh you reach the warp drive welcome to the the Galactic Federation or go ahead what are your thoughts yeah actually that that is a very interesting question which I have thought of is there a sort of threshold that a civilization has to cross before it gets that that invitation to join the Federation or or whatever it is and if it's not a federation it's probably something like it because I think you know I'm always wary of taking an anthropocentric view yet of course it's the only view we can have on on this um but I think it is one of the few good assumptions we can make that if if there are other civilizations out there particularly more advanced than us that they would come together in some sort of forum to discuss differences to discuss strategies for civilizations that are below that threshold to prevent conflict between Advanced civilizations all all that sort of thing so if if it's I mean if it's not called the Federation there's probably something very much like it and it does pose the question what what gets you in and that's why I I I think Gene very fascinating the you know some sort of f development of some sort of faster than light propulsion system or a workaround to the apparent barrier of light speed you know whatever it is whether it's a propulsion system or whether it's it's sort of warp drive wormholes whatever maybe that is it wouldn't it be amazing if Star Trek turned out to to be correct on that but maybe it's something else maybe it's something to do with our our sort of moral development maybe maybe you know you you could imagine that a sort of dominant belief system has emerged in the universe just by a sort of process of of you know lots of things coming together and eventually a dominant narrative will will maybe emerge or dominant civilization will will be the top dog and and will impose its kind of will top down but you know that that dominant narrative might be moral it it might be spiritual might be religious and and you know it might be something may be something unattainable for us at present and I take your point about if you went back in time you know to to Stone Age times because you're talking about you're still talking about anatomically mod modern humans and maybe given enough time you could explain quantum physics but if if you went back 5 to 7 million years ago you know to to the sort of the chimp human split I'm not sure then you could and then the question becomes are we at the level of the chimps and is there something more advanced which there very well might be um that does mean we can't I mean again it it depends is there an upper limit on human intelligence and I've heard various people talk for example about brain size and the pelvic Gap being being one factor there but again random mutation natural selection um you know who knows and then throw into the Mex Ai and machine [Music] intelligence yeah so that's where you start to get to some of the dark aspects of it I think is really where a lot of people haven't broached that everybody a lot the mainstream view is that this view that the aliens are going to come and help us and save us and and lift us up or something like that but when the reason why I think David grush changed to non-human intelligence and why we use that is because the options are are widespread including things like AI future humans ultraterrestrials Cryptids demons Angels huge list of things and then you look at all this whole phenomenon in general and you kind of want like if there is this threshold of what gets you in could explain this level of control suppression there seems to be over this topic where normally you know if it was just a situation where alien where there's aliens out there like you know first of all I don't see how that would be a national security issue and second of all if they are a threat I would imagine they would want to be transparent about that information but instead there's this aisc and there's this weird question about the technology related to it as well and I think that another thing to kind of support that idea that maybe there's this threshold is what you just brought up and I wanted to ask you if you've heard uh my interview with Jason geani I don't know if you know who he is but he's a very interesting guy that's looked into UFO and past civilizations and stuff like that um and also Peter theel when he was on Joe Rogan both have mentioned this idea that what if there's this Zero Point Energy technology or whatever it takes to make a Wormhole or warp drive but it's so powerful that your whole society has to be built kind of around making sure no one misuses this technology because it's so dangerous and that was kind of what you were talking about the moral system I was just wonder have you heard that at all because that's a pretty dark thing to think about if it's true yes I've given a lot of thought to this recently and and absolutely again being wear of anthropocentrism but again it's one of the very very few good assumptions that I think we can make is that for example if let's let's just suppose for the purposes of this we are talking about extraterrestrial visitation almost any conceivable means of viable Interstellar travel is is I think going to involve something that generates vast quantities of energy and almost and I think this is where you were coming from with this almost anything that generates vast quantities of energy can be weaponized or or even if it's not a deliberate weaponization could through misuse misunderstanding accident whatever uh have existential you know consequences if if something were to go wrong so I came into this sort of thinking you know disclosure if if it's all true if we've got smoking guns hidden away somewhere there shouldn't be any problem sort of saying you know we are not alone because that's not classified by any definition that I've ever operated under uh when it comes to classified information and I've I've had extremely high security clearances and and you know the definitions are fairly well understood it's it's information the release of which could have catastrophic consequences for the the defense of the United States I mean that's that's pretty much the sort of definition that that top secret would have um so that so let me ask if I can just jump in on that because you just made a really really great point which is that the argument you just made there is that we're not alone would never count as something something that's like a national security threat under classification mechanism so you know because a lot of people try to spin this argument that well the national security thing is this alien threat or whatever but again this idea that we're not alone and if it was all of these people that have clearances or had clearances like Lu zando who are going out there they wouldn't be allowed to say it and that's the one thing they are saying is that hey there aliens we not a loan that's out there so what is the National Security Danger risk and I don't want to put you in any trouble here but so I'll go ahead and tell you what I think it is and then I'll let you Pine uh I think the answer is the energy source what you just said was a great Point you're right it takes a huge amount of energy to make a wormhole or a war drive if you look at conventional physics that's one of the Hang-Ups the other hang-up is it also requires negative energy and this requires a new understanding of the view of our of our universe in order to understand how negative energy could be possible so it speaks to both of your points sorry you're over here on my screen uh speaks to both of your points about maybe we have to be like more enlightened to it she to understand the universe and it also speaks to this level of like if you can produce this you make a huge amount of energy huge amount of and that can be turned into a weapon which it makes it really dark this is the thing that if I think what's National Security well you just said it it's uh this huge amount of energy uh and the ability to weaponize it and energy is used to control our societ and weapons are used to destroy people and other people and maintain power so is that what they're hiding are they hiding an energy source from us that nobody knows about that could be part of it but let me let me sort of walk you through the evolution of my thinking on this and see see what you think because I I started off from a position of of exactly that and saying that that you you would not want to disclose anything to do with with the tech because that Tech could be weaponized or just through inadvertent misuse could could rip rip apart the universe you know um yeah but then I I sort of thought again and I thought well wait a minute in in my handling of classified information on a whole range of different subjects it's perfectly possible to to kind of War fall off a part of it you ring fence something so you should be able to say you know let's let's do the old cliche about how it might be announced the President should be able to say my fellow Americans people of the world we're not alone because there's nothing classified about that under any definition that I know the president could then go on to say but obviously elements of the technology are incredibly dangerous and we're not going to be saying anything about side of things so why hasn't that happened and this has taken me to to my my sort of current position on this the current position is that there must be something in and of itself about the Extraterrestrial presence or the nhi presence if that's what we're dealing with that that is very very dark side because if it was easy to disclose if people have known about this since 47 Roswell for if that's the start point then if it was easy someone would have done it by now so one of the again what of the few assumptions we can make is that it's not easy if something takes you 80 years and you still haven't done it though some people say we're chipping away at it um it must be very hard why is it very hard I think it goes beyond the tech the tech is clearly part of it it's it's a truism what we're discussing I don't think anyone could dis dispute that that high energy equals weaponization that's a given but what else is it about this and and that's why I have recently become attracted to the idea that there must be something inherently Dark Side about something about part of this something that you can't wall off something that's so inextricably linked with it that that it is the story so I know that's a little bit dark side no I think I'm with you right up until the end and this is where I want to this is actually great because this is where we can kind of push the conversation and push the dialogue and have back and forth about it is because I think that right up until the point where you say okay well you know why have they done it there must be a reason why they haven't just come out and said here's the situation we're going to hold back this technology but here you go here's you know the aliens or the past civilization or the future humans that told us about this Tech whatever it is I think the part the answer there is that if you were to do that everyone's going to go wait no you have to give us the technology what is the technology that you're you're hiding there we we need to know and then the reason why they can't you would say okay well just give us the good stuff but hold back the dangerous stuff that's the problem I think that that's a Pandora's Box where the moment you crack it open remember what I said earlier was that it's uh this idea that we could even you know have a UFO float it requires this perception change of the universe of how the universe works we have to see the universe is not empty but full of energy all around us because if it is then we have no problem understanding how a UFO could fly how you could achieve this huge amount of energy that's what they can't let happen in my opinion and now this is me kind of going on my conspiracy angle is that if we were to be enlightened enough to understand that then we our whole universe will open up our perspective of the universe will open up we might even understand that things like free energy could then become possible and now now what I would say is what's the dark aspect because I agree there is there must be a dark reason why they're not telling us so here's my Twist on that they've figured this technology out potentially for many decades they being a covert Elite group of people that is a combination of people that might be politicians or heads of very powerful large corporations uh energy companies defense contractors Etc and they've just decided nobody really else should learn about it or know about it and the reason why the department of energy then is involved in the UFO phenomenon is because they don't want anybody to know about this huge Pandora box and yes it could lead to things like free energy and warp drives and wormholes but it could also lead to like you pointed out correctly the annihilation of our reality of a black hole that wipes away our solar system not just our planet and if you look at from that perspective to say what would you do if you're the United States government to maintain military suprem Supremacy over this level of technology which you could argue is not just control over the oceans or the sky but SpaceTime itself you would probably do some really dark things to maintain Supremacy over that like some people have said like well JFK maybe was assassinated because he knew about UFO stuff but what if you've conducted illegal Black Operations against other countries to ensure that they don't get this UFO technology or whatever it is and you figured it out you would definitely not want to tell people about it because revealing the truth then about the UFOs is also revealing the truth of what you've done to use that technology for illegal things do you think that that's too far out there or do you think that there could be an element of Truth to that I think there could be an element of Truth and I think it gets to a really interesting question that I haven't heard anyone articulate in quite this sense but I'll I'll articulate it now and maybe they have if if somebody has then my apologies to them I think it it it might seem to the public like there's a very fine line between this but I would argue that there isn't because I I would say um you know the question is this if there is this program or programs are they literally illegal programs or are they just unacknowledged special access programs which are on on such a limited hold that it's either the so-called gang of eight or or even withheld from the gang of eight and and held on on a sort of special Presidential Directive and and people might say well there's not much difference in what it would look like that's that may be true it it would still be I guess managed by a very small select group but but there's a huge difference in terms of where it would then sit constitutionally because it it is either legal or it's not legal now you could say well even that how could you really say until it was tested in court but but I think you know there are there are precedents for for presidential directives on certain matters where something can even be withheld from the gang of eight and now I think to withhold something from the gang of a or their predecessors because of course that's not something that dates back to 1947 to have something that would be on that limited a hold for decades would be very very difficult so let's let's suppose it's gang of eight level and and historical equivalent further back in time um you know that that wouldn't make it an illegal program but I think it is you know it might sound like semantics to people but is actually a very important question because because if it is a legal program then those those controls can be challenged and a new Administration coming in particularly one which is is moving very quickly and radically like like the administration now might just push back on that but if this is an literally an illegal program well the point is that that even people within government who you would think would be running it might not even be aware of it yeah and I I just for the audience who's not familiar with the gang of eight references like I I researched like basically anybody in office who might know about UFO stuff to have a general background on it and so the gang of eight would be like the Senate intelligence committee the people that might be briefed on the existence of you know like advanced technology they have to know for you know their role in that committee um also just in terms of like the historical supression I found you know the atomic secrecy act it could be possible that you know just like with the atomic bomb I don't think anybody would believe I'm looking for my coin here that the atomic bomb existed unless we had set it off and what that taught us was that like even in the uh mass of this tiny coin there's a huge amount of energy like that's the concept that that taught us that we kind of our concept of the universe change but what if like the atomic atomic bomb was like one side of this coin and they figured out another side and the other side of that coin is like they don't need the coin at all they're just like the empty space in this region has enough energy that they can create a bomb if they wanted and they just decided never to tell anybody that they could have kept it secret under the atomic secrecy act and therefore anything related to it could have been kept secret and then the mention secrecy act in combination these are in the early 50s these could be used in combination to keep it secret and then to go to your point of the unacknowledged programs that was a that's a great point in my opinion because there are all these un unacknowledged programs that are out there but they're not being directly managed by the government even the department of energy all the labs they're all managed by a third-party company and it's a nonprofit government entity or something a non-government entity or something like this so they can Shield all this information from foyer requests from any type of like oversight and stuff like that as well so you look at all this and I go well this is exactly set up to like have figured this technology out worked on it suppressed it and then the last thing this is where I want to ask you a question is I found out something called bigot lists which is basically lists of people who are read in on these acknowledg unn knowledged programs and it doesn't even have military people on them apparently a lot of times like the like generals aren't read in Navy like Admirals aren't read in it wouldn't surprise me to your point to find out that the president's not read in on many different programs that are out there but they would may maybe get read in on like a need to know basis so if I look at all this and I go oh boy okay well it certainly seems possible that there could be a narrative where you know aliens might be real but they're also using aliens to blame aliens for this crazy technology that we've figured out in these secret programs and only a select number of people really know the truth so it makes it really hard to get even if anyone wanted to get the truth out to get it out there and then the alien thing would be more of like just a covering that part up uh do you think that that might be what's going on with all of this or do you think that that's not not possible no sure and I think the point you made about the private sector is very important I mean it it's you know it doesn't of course all all sorts of private sector entities are constantly called um to testify to Congress but but again there are there are degrees with this and I think I think one one example that might be worth people's time looking into and I I I don't know whether you're familiar with this and I don't know whether people watching this will have heard of it but it's it's I haven't mentioned this very often because there are still sensitivities about it but there's a really interesting model model as to what the program might look like and where it where it might sit and there was a group of there was a group of people informally known as the Enterprise which which is kind of another Star Trek reference but but that's not the context that this was meant but these these were a group of about half a dozen people at at middle to senior level across a range of different um organizations DOD CIA um Etc and in the end it all unraveled and quite a lot of them some of them ended up in jail but but some didn't and um if if people look at the Enterprise and they had their roots in things that went on in the Vietnam War but it was still kind of going on and segwayed into some of the Iran Contra um narrative but and I realize that's not exactly what you asked me but I think it's very relevant in terms of what a program might look like and where it might sit given that we discussed the fact that some of this might not be in government the Enterprise kind of was I can't I think you would describe it as quazi governmental and there was always and I don't want to lapse into too many cliche terms but but there was always this plausible deniability about it yeah but like I say some some DOD some CIA um it's it's worth people's time to do a little bit of of reading about the Enterprise um people can look up the names but it's Klein shly I was just going to say the plausible deniability aspect to me seems extremely important because that's how if anything goes wrong the people in power can just say hey we had nothing to do with this and then from what you were saying earlier in terms of like is this even illegal or legal that's a great Point more people should probably talk about that like is what's going on even legal I would argue that they've got it set up in a way where most of the stuff that's happening is probably legal I mean the only reason why I'm doing this stuff on a podcast is that I I believe the US government pulled off a covert operation of Civilian airliner which I think a lot of people would say is a war crime but if you really look at the legality of it international waters and what have you it's like it actually gets a lot fuzzier than that and that's one of the more clear cut cases versus just generally you know having produced you know UFO technology which is like a victimless crime You could argue so I think it's going to get really murky but this is another dark aspect of the phenomenon that I wanted to ask you about is that what if it turns out that it is real we we let's say we've reverse engineered this craft that landed in Roswell or we crashed in Roswell or what have you and we gave it to whoever became loed Martin so locki Martin has a craft and they were reverse engineering it and they figured out they had all these breakthroughs and now we're like wanting to reveal that well what happens to locki Martin when we reveal that yes this is all true they've got a craft don't do you think like in my thought process would be that they are going to get sued out of existence because all their competitors who didn't get a UFO craft to reverse engineer who are going to argue in court that like they government helped them out and gave them this craft and it turned them into a trillion dollar company like what are your thoughts well I suspect that people at Lockheed when this technology was transferred if that's what happened were smart enough to know that they needed some sort of they needed a piece of paper um you know and and you have this for example and I I know a little bit about this in relation to going to war um without getting into the rights or wrongs of it uh when when there was the the second Gulf War certainly in the United Kingdom the chief of the defense staff so the the equivalent the UK equivalent of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs said to basically to Tony Blair the then prime minister um you know I'm I'm absolutely going to follow the the order and um you know deploy but I need a piece of paper to say that it's legal and and so and and and so I this yeah and and rightly so because otherwise you know we we were in the era of the international criminal court and he was just protecting his people he said I need a piece of paper to say it's legal and um well I won't go down that road because there were a lot of Dramas but but bringing it back to what we were discussing I'm sure loed or whoever it was would have said I need a piece of paper a Presidential Directive or something so I suspect they will be all right that being said as I mentioned earlier you don't really know whether something is legal or not you can have a belief that it's legal but until and unless it's challenged in court and a judge decides on it um then then arguably you're in a gray area but this is very important because this goes back to of course what nearly happened um a little while ago with the schuma rounds Amendment and um as you will recall the schuma rounds Amendment with its what was it 24 mentions of the ter term nhi in it was to have gone in to the National Defense authorization act but for a number of reasons didn't but one of the provisions in the schars amendment was eminent domain and what that would have done is it would have mandated the US government to take back any nhi technology any bi Logics all of the above that it had had at some point but had then passed into the private sector and it's very interesting that that didn't happen yeah so I love the idea I want to live in the universe some of them some people say that like we can manifest our our Consciousness can manifest reality I am going to focus 100% of my effort in a reality where lockie Martin pulls up a piece of paper that says president and signed off on this UFO release of Technology You Can't Hold Us liable for getting this UFO uh cuz that would just be amazing uh but honestly I'm glad you switched over the Schumer Amendment thing because I've been speculating that they're going to use some law like that if not that to give amnesty to all the people that have been working on this technology figured it out used it for like sketchy purposes because like what you said whether or not it's legal or not is really going to be a matter of probably what administration is in charge what their viewpoints are it becomes all politics at that point so it's going to get really sticky the whole point of bringing this up was to show people that really UFO disclosures a is a lot more complicated than just like hey aliens are real guys like it's going to get into this sticky situation so you could I I want you to comment on that but also just to ask like do you think the Trump Administration is is going you said they can change some of this stuff they have some controls do you think they are going to change some aspect of uh UFO disclosure if any president is is going to disclose against the advice of the deep State the bureaucracy the Civil Service whatever you call it if any president's going to do it it's going to be Trump in a second term because just everything that we've seen in in really the first few days of this Administration shows you how radical this is but there's another interesting point which actually goes back to the last days of the Biden Administration it speaks to your point about um amnesty the president can give a pardon for and that you could say and this is the actually this is the exception to my point that you don't know if it's legal or not until it it gets to court and it's tested well it won't even get to court if there's that Guardian and not solution of a a retrospective presidential pardon now we saw one of one of President Biden's very last actions was to give fouchy a a pardon which I think went back to correct me if I'm wrong but 2014 whatever it was um but there's no reason why a radical second term president like Trump couldn't say in relation to UAP um I am giving a retrospective pardon to anyone who has been involved in this program even if they have committed offenses which which are illegal I mean it's it's it would just and in fact you don't want to get down into the weeds the the the most effective presidential pardon is just a very general one saying you have a yeah a pardon and it's backdated your that really is a get out of jail free card now you know a lot of people in the UFO Community I think Steve bassett's talked about it Danny Sheen who of course is a lawyer has talked about it have said what if and there are a lot of what ifs here but what if people have um you know been responsible for well David grush testified under oath in Congress that people have been as he put it harmed whatever that means in the keeping of this Secret um what if the whole abduction thing is real and people have been subjected to non-consensual experiences because the state decreed that it was going to do a deal I'm speculating but a lot of people say that this has happened well you know all those issues that sound very very complicated instantly become extremely simple if you get a blanket presidential pardon backdated yeah and I think that's the problem though is that from the perspective and this is why I was challenging the perspective of maybe the dark secret isn't it could be alien related but maybe it's not just alien maybe the dark Secret's us as well you know and what we've done uh because I think that it's like okay well you know here's the examples like what if we either disintegrated or annihilated a commercial airliner with UFO technology it's like okay well now we just killed hundreds of people this is even Beyond just the suppression of a single person what if we've actually performed operations government operations with UFO technology now it's like okay how do you your pardon now where do you draw the line in your pardon you got to have a thing in the pardon that says okay if you like actually like killed anybody you can't this Parton doesn't apply to you but it's even going to get murky then and the lines of murkiness are just never ending and then to some degree it won't even matter because the court of public opinion takes over at some point like even even if you pardon somebody if they find out that you did something horrible you know like like abductions like if you abduct if you were abducting people and it turns out that they can prove that you were actually responsible in coordinate abduction or not you but whoever out there um you know public court of public opinion is not going to care if you got a p a pardon you know and so that's the part where I think it becomes like if if that's the truth it actually kind of explains the sticky situation we're in right now cuz there has to be some reason why it's not just easy you know push it out there so we've kind of covered a few of those reasons right now and one of the other reasons I want to I want to just make sure we get some time for as well is the Dark Side of or actually there's one more quote I want to ask you about then we're going to get into the dark side of what the ET situation non-human intelligence situation could be is that you're probably familiar with a guy named Ben Rich he was director of lockie Martin Skunk Works for many years and he's uh you know in the if you look on social media see a lot of quotes and references to him and uh you know my favorite is he says whatever you could imagine that we could have you could have seen on TV or what have you we've already had the capability to do it but it's been locked up in Black projects and it would take an act of God to get that information out uh there's another clip where someone was asking him about you know I'll just paraphrase basically saying like how can this all be possible that we have like you're making crazy claims how's this all possible and Ben Rich responds to the guy and says well how is ESP possible which is kind of an odd comment to make and the guy kind of thinks about it for a second and goes well all points in space and time are connected and he says exactly what are your thoughts on that yeah I've I've heard some debate about those Ben Rich quotes and and whether he was you know meaning them literally or whether he was you know either literally joking or making a you know more light-hearted um nebulous kind of speculative metaphor or something so I don't I really can't speak to that um but sure I mean the there is a lot of tech out there and a lot of things that some people may understand and the rest of us mere mortals don't um and it brings me on to one other point which may or may not be connected with any of this which I I sort of throw into the conversation I'm sure you've noticed because I certainly have that you know you watch The Narrative unfold and you watch what I would say is clearly a struggle for narrative control even if the people are ostensively quite friendly but but you look at all the players then you look at the narrative and one thing that I've noticed almost literally in the last couple of weeks is how much the relig it of this has suddenly ramped up um suddenly everything is about um you know Chris bledo and Diana Pula and the lady and and all of that and I'm not I'm not drawing any conclusions from that but when I as a government guy suddenly see the narrative do a subtle but noticeable change there's there's clearly been a little course correction I ask myself why that's happening and and I make a note for myself that something interesting has just happened H wow interesting perspective yeah I want to comment on that so let's we'll hold the ET thing for a second because this goes into another one of the questions I was going to ask is that so for me I believe that Ben Rich was 100% telling the truth there it's such a weird thing thing to say and then to back it up and not to like make it obviously laughing obvious that he was joking or something like that especially given the position that he was in and the reason why I'm sure in my opinion is because I've also spent the time to talk to the engineers like Salvador pise who has the UFO patents he's a friend of mine now from after having talked to him um I've spoken uh like Harvard physicist Avi lobe uh even though like I you know he doesn't necessarily know about black projects but to like really understand the physics of it and come to the conclusion that like they've figured this out like the UFO the Navy I think has figured this out and these defense contracts because these guys like P also worked with like lock or north of Grumman as well a lot of people in the UFO Community they're more focused on talking to like whistleblowers people that like you know they have stories which is great if it's real or like you said with the narrative that's being pushed right now like I think Chris bledo is pushing this like the second coming of Christ kind of narrative um and Diana Pula I think also digs deep into the Rel religiosity aspect of it um you know that worries me and I want to know your opinion on this because I'm always very clear to people in terms of what I've been putting my con out this is not a religion this is not a cult that I'm doing I'm just teaching people science and showing people the evidence letting them come to their own conclusions versus when you're telling people stories and you're trying to guide their perception like to me I'm very afraid of that happening around the UFO phenomenon not just from the alien aspect but also from like the transhuman aspect related to technology as well and I want people to try to stay grounded in you know reality on some of that stuff because I fear what that can do to our society if we if we develop this like cult-like thinking around it what are your thoughts I completely share your concerns about that and and it's it's one of the reasons I mentioned it in our conversation today because I think it is it's interesting and it's important and it's concerning I think think and it's the other thing is frankly it's a gift to the Skeptics because the Skeptics will just turn around and say well look they just trying to create a new religion out of this and we' we have seen literal UFO and extraterrestrial religions of course before with things like the raans um and and there's no getting away from the fact that one one I won't say easy but if you pull it off very effective way of gaining simultaneously a lot of power and a lot of money is to create a new religion and and I I share your concern that that some aspects of what we're seeing now is is sounding very much like a new religion and I mean the there's always been of course a new age I'll call it a wing on the belief Spectrum there's always been a part of the UFO Community has always been very new age oh the space Brothers the space sisters are here to save us from ourselves to prevent pollution of the planet extermination of of biodiversity and and to stop nuclear war and to Usher us into that Galactic Federation we were talking about earlier in our conversation that's always been there but I think there's been as I say a ramping up of this and and some of this is getting almost literally you know Messianic with with with this like literally talking about the second coming and and then of course who do the the kind of proponents of this Theory then become if if not the prophets of this new religion and and that may not be it doesn't even have to be deliberate um to be unfortunate because I I think we see we see all too often in the world you know religion is is an incredibly powerful tool and we see on a daily basis the the kind of real world horrific outcomes that result from differences in beliefs so should we really be saying hey what the world needs is another religion I I'm saying no wait stop you know what are you doing here and I'm I'm kind of laughing about it but it's it's a kind of laugh at the absurdity of it in a a sense not funny haha um but the the whole ramping up of the religious narrative around this causes me huge concern yeah I'm with you and I'm also worried a little bit about the sensationalism that happens as well um you know I think that that happened a lot with the egg UFO disclosure thing where I think that if it wasn't sensationalized to being talked up to being the next big thing or this was going to give us disclosure I think it would have been great I think it would have been a great story but instead they hyped it up to be like oh we're going to have a video of a UFO craft but it's just we can't tell what it is or anything like that do you concern are you concerned about that at all in terms of like where UFO Al is headed right now um it doesn't feel very scientific based to me when I look out there at the field no I don't know what to make of Jake Barber haven't met him I I've seen the some interviews of course I've seen we all have I'm sure everyone watching this we've seen the egg video I would say about that what I would say about almost any photos and videos these days in in these days of AI you just can't you just really can't tell anymore and people say well there are programs out there that can can tell if something's AI generated or not it it just you get locked into an arms race it's like miss you develop a missile then you develop an anti-missile then you de develop an anti- anti-missile and it's like yeah well I'm sure there are ways of getting round the AI detectors using AI so that's a very long- winded way of saying I don't trust my eyes and no pictures whether they're still images or videos purporting to be of of UAP are really going to convince me um because I've seen Hollywood movies that that look great and if some someone presented that and said hey this is a Declassified US military uh image of UAP it would look great but we know Hollywood can do it and if Hollywood can do it other people can do it too or Hollywood can do it for the US government so pictures you know people used to say a picture paints you know is worth a thousand words but um it really isn't these days I I think you know what we need what we need and I'm not not saying this is the the single answer but we need Congress to continue to do what it has started to do to try to identify these people verify their information and then hold the government to account for this I don't know I got to go in a different direction with you on that one uh a I mean I agree with you can't really believe anything that you see anymore it's I get caught with seeing and believing fake stuff all the time cuz everything's so it's hard to tell these days with AI and everything you know so definitely happens I agree on that front but the problem is more people telling stories I was this I was that I had a communicate telepathic communication with this alien or whatever you know and it doesn't have to be that sensationalist but more stories I don't think are pushing the needle anymore like we need it's like this this was going to be my question like how do we even achieve disclosure in a world where stories aren't good enough but we also can't really believe what we see with eyes and to take even a step further just to be honest with you if Joe Biden had come out and said hey aliens are real I'd pretty much be sure they're not anymore at that point so I can't really trust any branch of any of these things how do we achieve disclosure what what are your what are your thoughts I I you're articulating a very real problem and I don't I don't have an answer to it because you're right um you know I I could push back and say well Congress does vet these people before before anyone gets anywhere near even talking to a congressional representative they will usually go through one or more staffers who who will look into their background and so before any of these people testify a good deal of vetting has has gone on and and I've been peripherally involved I once had a job in the directorate of Defense security I didn't do vet vetting but the people that did vetting were were in in a nearby part of the the organization and of course I was vetted myself for example to get various security clearances so so that vetting is part of the answer but yes even with vetting I agree with you it is just more stories and then you you hit the problem of the polarization of our society and you mentioned you know if Joe Biden had said as his almost his last action okay um there's an alien presence half of the population wouldn't have believed it conversely I'll flip it and I'll say if if president Trump were now to disclose the other half of the population would probably say well I don't believe it it's some Sinister Maga plot you know probably part of part of project 2025 only this time it's project check 2027 with all this all this talk of of whatever's going to happen in 2027 even the mag even the magga people even half of them wouldn't believe it even half of them would be like oh nope Trump got bought out by the lizard people now crap so we that's why that wouldn't even work either like there's no like we're just kind of stuck in this era but I do think there might be video evidence that could convince people you know in that hearing uh Tim galet who is a former rear Admiral I believe and also Michael shellenberger who's a journalist um but he was I think speaking on behalf of a whistleblower that was not coming was not going public they both said that we've got some archive called Immaculate constellation that is got hundreds or thousands of satellite videos and other surveillance that we've collected and I looked into the our surveillance or like you know us surveillance systems of the last year and a half and and we do we do have crazy stuff like that so I'm not I have no doubt we have stuff where like if we were to release it it would be people would probably be able to deny like one or two videos but if they were to release like a dozen it would just become obvious that we were going to see go ahead maybe but even then let I mean we've we've had um you know from from the sort of start of this going mainstream in December 2017 with the New York Times article we very quickly had those three US Navy videos but we instantly had push back from people like Mick West um putting alternative hypotheses forward for that and let's let's just suppose Immaculate constellation is true and we suddenly get not three videos but you know 30 or 300 videos there'll still be some people that say so what it's just more of the same which brings us to one one possible answer to all of this is is going to be that it's it's going to be science but it's going to be for example astronomy and let's one one answer to the question we were talking about what gets you into the Galactic Federation another question let's flip the question and say at what point does the government if they are Gatekeepers of this not to keep it secret anymore anymore and one possible answer to that question is the point at which the secret can no longer be kept and let's just suppose that for example James web Space Telescope suddenly looks in the right place and somewhere orbiting a very nearby star they find you know a Dyson Sphere or or something like that something that's not just a bio signature but a techno signature and it's it's repeatable and it's it's you know it fulfills all all the criteria of the scientific method in terms of falsifiability and repeatability and and Etc um maybe that's the threshold maybe that's what's going to push us over the line and of course there have been rumors you you all have heard the rumors they've been around for at least a year now rumors that James web Space Telescope has found something wouldn't surprise me at all I spoke to uh Professor Simon Holland uh you should speak to him if you haven't actually you guys definely get along oh yeah you have yeah great guy and he's got connections the people that worked in seti and like the European version of seti and you know he's pretty much told me I think we've got recorded that said like his contacts say like absolutely we've had Communications we potentially have faster than light communication and they're hiding that as well um I think you're right that probably the only time we'll get disclosure if we're being really honest with ourselves is when they can't keep it secret anymore and then it's just a matter of like what does it can't keep a secret anymore look like and that's a hard question cuz I think that you know even if we see something up there like like you said there's always going to be the Skeptics that are going to be able to try to you know cast mud or doubt on whatever the evidence is of something abnormal and that's where I think you're right we have to use science and um I wasn't going to bring all this up but I I want to show you what my hall pass is on that because I just want people out there to realize like I think there are ways where we can use science and we can achieve disclosure if we were to just get the right kind of video evidence that would support it because in science um we've got the thing about science our understanding of the universe right now that might be limited is that you know we think think that space is potentially empty and in this video just for these few seconds here you see endothermic propulsion and you also see an endothermic event this this event is black the point being this is a thermal video and any type of event that we were to see that was conventional from our perspective of physics we would expect this to be white hot type of event a release of energy if we see something like this if those the videos from 2017 the those videos showed propulsion like this or the cameras could pick up that I think that just from a scientific perspective we don't need anything else beyond that that's all I think that we need from the scientific perspective and my argument being that the smart physicists and what have you they're going to be able to figure out just from videos with that much detail what it is we're missing from our perspective of the universe and that's what scares me that's why my opinion is that they've must have figured it out they must have figured it out and then they're hiding that those puzzle pieces from us and that's why they also don't want us to see the immaculate constellation videos and then one last thought is I also think that this is why they're filming in uh Fleer the forward looking in for red I remember having like being so confused looking at those DOD Navy videos until that was all explained exp to me that oh it's infrared and we're using these special cameras I'm like why are we why are we using that and then you go oh wait if we're looking at UFOs and we can see some special physics property of them using these videos then it all starts to make sense what are your thoughts sure yeah I mean as you know there's a whole branch of of intelligence called Mazin which is is measurement and signature analysis intelligence pardon me and and so you know that that can can you know depending on which definition you use can like cover an awful lot of these these ways of of gathering data and then analyzing data whether it's using using conventional radar whether it's you using Fleer whatever it is now of course you know some people will say that you know you can only of course get the data that that your your sensor platforms are configured to collect I mean that's that's kind of a truism and that that has led some people who've been briefing Congress to suggest to Congress that they put into the National Defense authorization act which they have the idea that you need different kinds of sensors because what we've generally found with with a lot of this is that we're dealing with accidental capture and and and it's it's kind of a mindset issue it's it's like we only realized how much how prevalent UAP were when we we started to pick them up when we weren't really looking for them all our systems of course were configured on very conventional threats all our radar systems people say well why don't we you know detect things coming from from the upper atmosphere down with radar systems because our radar systems are generally looking for a conventional attack from from Russia um or or China you know I mean it's literally pointed in the the wrong direction so now there is this mindset that wait we've been missing something and and if this is more prevalent than we thought we need to firstly we need to do three things firstly we need to change our mindset that's almost the most important thing of all you won't find something if you're not even looking for it but then you need to reconfig the sensor platforms that you have and point them in the right direction and then the third thing that you need to do which Congress is is kind of alive to is that you need to design new kind of sensor uh platforms so that you can get the data you need and and it's those data that are going to maybe push you over the line with this but you know just rounding that off and rewinding one point that I didn't make about how all this might suddenly kind of come out is of course if the phenomenon itself you know when we talk about what the trigger point is whether it's for joining a Galactic Federation or for disclosure or whatever well let's let's not forget that the phenomenon itself has a say in this one might logically presume so there might be a point where the phenomenon perhaps for the same reason realizing that even it cannot really operate unseen anymore um just decides okay then secrecy becomes redundant yeah and for me it's like I don't know exactly where this comes from but I I'm pretty convinced that we've got this technology how to get it out seems like a huge complex web and a mess I think that the last topic I want to broach is the more Fantastical side of it which is okay if there is this dark aspect of it and there I think there must be a dark aspect of it because they would have otherwise let it out I think there's absolutely got to be UFOs going on whether or not there's some us some aliens or some other non-human intelligence explanation I think there can be multiple answers and the weird part is the more I learn the less I know the less for sure I am about where I think the nature of it is coming from uh but it's fun to speculate and so if there is some dark aspect I want to explore a few ideas that we can kind of come up with the one that scares me the most is this idea of a prison planet where like if there is a threshold for example that we have to get above like if we're not above that threshold you're on the prison planet and you're not part of the party you're not in the club and until you can show that you're above that threshold and that you're like maybe a nonviolent species or whatever however Society has to be arranged you just don't get to come into the club and if you get to out of hand we come in and we just Bank you a little bit till you go back you know down like what do you think about that the prison planet type scenario absolutely I I think it goes back to the point that I was making about um if a dominant idea or belief system has emerged in the universe then that might represent a sort of order that is imposed that would then mean that civilizations are only accepted in um when when they have demonstrated themselves you know capable of of operating to that order and I mentioned that it might be moral and and so you know you can have all sorts of speculation about what it might be it might be something that we regard as quite trivial um but let's just suppose that a dominant narrative has emerged in the universe um that we would we would characterize as as say veganism for example you know a sort of I don't want to frame it in in a religious sense but I I will for the purposes of this let's suppose that the dominant kind of belief system in the universe is Thou shalt not eat something else which is alive and that any civilization that does that is regarded as as disgusting as primitive um you know and I'm I'm I'm not vegan or vegetarian myself I'm just using this as an example that we really have no idea what that Dom theme or belief might be but but it does seem logical that you know dominant I mean we see again watch for the an anthropocentrism but but you know you would say that most societies on earth have have developed uh whether it's a legal Andor a moral code but you know you you shouldn't kill for are human beings well of course we kill people all the time for all sorts of reasons then you could say there's an even more dominant belief that says you shouldn't kill a child but again children are killed all the time um in in Warfare usually inadvertently but sometimes by by people who are pathological uh and sometimes through ACD let me take a dark Twist on this is that what if the uh moral requirement to get over the threshold is not what what if the moral requirement to get over the threshold is totalitarianism where now your choice is if you want full disclosure of the technology and non-human intelligence you have to become a totalitarian Society a completely collectivist Society where nobody steps out of line and that's what's required would you still want it yeah well that that's a point I give you that choice go ahead no so it and it's a very you're making a very interesting point because it it goes back to the the idea that a dominant belief system in the universe might be something completely pun intended alien to what we would would require it might be something that we regard fundamentally as a bad thing so so you know the the threshold or it might be something something so bizarre and Abstract that it would seem to us completely foolish or ridiculous there's no there's no reason why a dominant idea has to necessarily be a moral one or even a logical one history shows us that that from time to time you know not on a whole world scale but certainly on an Empire scale all sorts of abhorent ideas become the accepted nor like child sacrifice many many civilizations in human history practiced child sacrifice now we would regard it as as as you know absolutely reprehensible but for a time in human history it was a dominant belief system yeah and that's where I it worries me because I fear that we're talking about the dark sides of it and we're trying to come up with rationals for why you keep it secret that would be a pretty good reason if it turns out hey yeah there is a Galactic Federation but they're basically space nais they're you know I mean I'm exaggerating but they're completely totalitarian everybody you have to give up all your freedoms everybody like that is a pretty big deal for a lot of people out there and I could see why that would be a type of dark situation where it's like you get here's this great thing you get all this energy but it comes with a pretty heavy cost pretty heavy burden so that's one I have three different scenarios I kind of want to judge with you and I love your take on that as well the second one is what if it's AI now we've seen the advance of AI and this is where I want your perspective because you're even a little bit older than I am and so you've kind of seen this whole evolution of computers and Technology to me AI has come out of nowhere and its evolution is exponential it feels like and if it has access to an exotic energy source that maybe UFOs have figured out aliens figured out it potentially could take off and the speed at which it's happening blows my mind and then if you look at physics there's this concept of the holographic principle which essentially says is that all the information can be encoded on the barrier which is this idea that our universe might not be it might be a projection on a from a lower dimensional State potentially is what we're experiencing which you know goes to this idea of maybe everything's a simulation so when I think of the AI taking over I wonder is the whole world this giant simulation that AI already took over long time ago what is your thoughts about AI in general and how it connects to the UFO phenomenon well I remember attending a Royal Society discussion meeting in the UK in 2010 I think it was and uh Steven dick who was NASA's former Chief historian speculated that we might be living in a largely post-biological Universe um as he put it populated by Immortal thinking machines and this was at the Royal Society so and and now that idea might have sounded very bizarre then now with with the rise of AI I I think his his view might be a little more accepted but yes absolutely and what if that's the threshold um what if we are in that post-biological or largely post biological Universe where actually the Galactic Federation is AI and where Biologicals are regarded as primitive and dirty and only when we evolve into or or are replaced by AI will we will be be accepted into the Galactic Federation in other words is is there a sort of no biologics rule out there is that the dominant we are hting stuff that I think anybody's talked about no biologics rule like I could see something like that too imagine if that's the case are you going to upload yourself to the to the cloud uh Nick if you get that chance in your lifetime U I'm not sure about that one but you know you you now I would say I'm not sure or or whatever but let's suppose that I was painfully and terminally ill and dying I'm sure my answer would be very different it's a scary thought and this is why this is another one of the dark answers to me is not necessarily where AI is at right now but the trajectory of AI and the idea that we could reach a point where we have up capability to store a consciousness of a person on a server it's you know it sounds like science fiction but the way things have advanced so far it seems like it could happen within our lifetimes and that could be a real choice that somebody has to make and if you really take it to its extreme you say okay well maybe it starts with people who are terminal who are uploading themselves but then it gets more and more accepted to the point where now all of your friends have all uploaded themselves and you're the only biological person left can you imagine the peer pressure to upload yourself now as well with everybody else and hang out with your family forever where you never age ever again I mean this is dark but you know it's starting to become like realistic future I mean Emerald Robinson just asked me the other day about this is like like do you think that Larry Ellison like the owner of Oracle and these other billionaires that that's what they're doing I just straight up told her yeah I think that's what their plan is so kind of scary any other thoughts on that one yeah that's that's one option and I don't I don't know whether technology will ever allow us to do that because in one sense it it then plays into an almost unknowable discussion about Consciousness and you know using a religious language the soul um and and you know would would it actually be you and then that gets you to to again philosophical questions like let's suppose AI becomes self-aware and sentient how could you ever you know we talk about a touring test and a new touring test how could we ever become absolutely certain that something was sentient AI was sentient as opposed to just perfectly mimicking sentience and and that of course gets that's just philosophy and it's it's maybe unknowable and and so in all these scenarios I guess there's the idea that we might merge with AI and you know you talk about transhumanism and uploading ourselves into the cloud but another alternative is that we are simply displaced in a sort of darwinian way by the AI which we create which evolves Beyond us whether or not it it's sentient in one sense it doesn't matter if it's sentient or if it's just yeah you know mimicking sentients it could still replace us either way yeah a distinction without a difference I guess they would say at some point is if it's acting like a conscious being what's the difference um and yeah so the AI thing I think is is very scary especially because of how fast it's evolved and how you know you would think how what would it look like with a million years of advancement for AI and also would an AI even experience time at the same rate that we do and this what leads me into the last theory that I want to Broach with you dark theory is that uh as I've researched Z Point Energy uh gravity manipulation one of the things that keeps coming up over and over again is that if you manipulate gravity you manipulate the flow of time and what that means is this turns any UFO that's using a gravity prop pulsion system into a time machine uh but it doesn't necessarily work like in the movies um my current understanding of how it would work would be more of like you might be able to like reverse aene in a certain region but you're not going to like go back to like 1950 or something like that but anyway the reason why I bring this up is that if you look at like the double slit experiment the most mysterious experiment in physics and the variant on it called the delayed Choice Quantum eraser the delayed Choice Quantum eraser variant presents strong evidence that information can flow from the future to the present and this is why I think a lot of people in the UFO Community have presented this theory of future humans that maybe the phenomenon is US using time machines manipulating gravity and we're seeing temporal distortions or there are situations like Jack sarfati claims you got a phone call from the future so there might be situations where messages were able to go theoretically to the past and that would then spark us to achieve some technological breakthroughs that we weren't otherwise been ready for what what is your thoughts on the future humans hypothesis or explanation for the non-human intelligence sure well I mean uh UFO Witnesses like Jim peniston from the randles Sham Forest case um believe that this was a craft from the future and not from another uh civilization uh across the stars and uh interestingly I guess uh I I was aware of the Jack safti story and I I met Jack some some years ago in London actually but um of course somebody who I haven't met but I'm aware of his work is is Professor Ronald malet and as one of the few theoretical physicists doing research into time travel I thought it was very interesting that Professor Mallet talked about using subatomic particles with a spin state of either up or down to send a basically a binary message back through time um through through controlling the spin state to be either up or down and thus enabling you to send a binary message because that ties in almost exactly with what Jim peniston from the rendlesham forest incident encountered with a binary message so I I don't have the I don't have the the scientific understanding of any of this but I'm aware that that some people like Professor Mallet are are looking at these sorts of areas and absolutely that would be very dark side because I I guess again I I only have a Sci-Fi understanding of this and not a science understanding but but my my understanding of things like grandfather Paradox um leads me to believe that that that in in and of itself might explain secrecy because if you start interacting with something too much you you you run into that grandfather Paradox more and more so absolutely I I have a presentation which I've given a couple of times talking about this dark side and the presentation is called a secret too terrible to be told and absolutely the idea that some of this relates to time uh is is one part of that presentation and and again to anyone who who thinks this sounds strange I say look up into the night sky and people often don't realize but they are looking literally back in time when you look at the Moon you're seeing it as it was one and a half seconds ago if if you look at Proxima centuri you're looking at at it just over four years ago if you looking at some of the distant objects they're not there anymore yeah and time travel being the dark aspect would that would make sense as well you can't just let everybody have a time travel device that's out there and we've determined that negative time is a real phenomenon but we don't really know exactly what negative time means so that's why the whole time travel aspect like okay if we can go back in time are there limits and I don't think anybody that claims to know for sure I'm not really going to trust them because it could be a deterministic scenario like you say where you have these paradoxes like you you can't go back and harm your your relatives or you would never exist but it could also be a many world scenario where there might be infinite universes of all different possibilities that are happening all the time in either of those scenarios the government or whoever doesn't want people random people going messing around the timelines or you know whatever else might be going on that's dangerous right and it's yeah it it is literally in that scenario an extinction level event because a particular timeline would be altered and you would flip into a parallel universe yeah so these are the reasons why I prefer more like dark explanations because as much as these seem more implausible harder to accept or believe some of them I think are getting easier to accept like the AI scenarios and others are getting easier to accept just from the advancement in science that we're having happen but I think that there must be a dark explanation I think that if there was just some easy answer to all this it would have all come out long ago and I think there must be something there because how far back the the history of it and then when I talk to people like you who've researched it and were in positions related to the government who've talked who've you know looked into it there's something out there happening so if it was something easy um they would have already let us know all about it so it's been fun uh Nick Pope to explore all of these topics with you thank you so much for being my guest today and I just want to give you a chance to uh shout out any projects that you're working on or where people can find you thank you and I I've enjoyed this conversation too it's taken us to some very interesting and and I think unusual and unexpected places that I don't normally get into in interviews so so thank you for that um for people who want to know a little bit more about me and my work my website is nick.net um my the social media platform on which I'm most active is X formerly known as Twitter where my handle is at Nick popmod and two projects that I have at the moment uh well a few things uh of course I'm I'm on the new season of Ancient Aliens which is looking at not just ancient Mysteries but increasingly following the modern developments too and I also moderate the live show there's a touring live show um we've done I think about 80 shows over the last two and a half years all around the US um ancient aliens live tour.com for details of that and and we're about to go on the spring leg of that tour my last film was called apocalypse covid and that's about government overreach during the pandemic uh just come now it's gotten a bit of mainstream news media coverage but this is a very still a very sensitive topic of course and I have two more UAP related films coming up um uh the next one I think is is called um aliens from the abyss the Dark Side of disclosure or or something like that um we keep playing around with the titles somewhat but I'll put all this on my X feed when it goes live so like I say on an almost daily basis I update at Nick Pope mod with with my various projects so that's really the place to to go and to interact I do try and engage and reply well thank you again Nick this has been an awesome conversation and let's do it again soon this was fun to talk about and I I like that we kind of pushed the boundary on and talked about some things that I haven't really been heard uh get discussed in the UFO community so have a great day yeah