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When you do PB11, you get three helium nuclei. One of them is at a fixed energy of 3.46me and the other two are average 2.4 something and they're average because of really decays is moving. So they run between about 100 kilovolts and couple of me. Uh that helium you have to take the energy out by having grids external to the machine electrically biased grids. So the the helium nuclei charge up against the grids and when they run out of energy they will hit that next grid. Okay? When they hit the grid they become neutral because they're neutralized by the electron. And then you have to have an exhaust pumping system that pumps really don't I mean engineering is not you know you just don't do that. You have to have really good people Westinghouse and Genie and Rathon and a lot of good people come in to help you to do all the engineering of that heavy stuff. You want to do 200 kilovolt standoffs. I don't do that funded Westinghouse to do that but we have 800 kilovolt mega transmission line. >> One other thing he mentions is I think people don't understand is it takes a huge amount of effort a bunch of people. You can't just do all this in your garage. He's like we had to have GE and Rathon, these other companies come in to do the engineering. We've got the physics solved, but the engineering of this is like a huge endeavor to pull off. So this is the other aspect people have to understand. Even people at Google were wondering because they think you're just going to do this in your garage or something. >> Not running across the country. So people do know how to talk about those things. Anyway, the impediment has always been money. We've told the Navy and the DoD since 1989 that the cost of this program in today's dollars is $200 million. We've added a report after report after report and they knew that and they knew that from the beginning and they said we can't do that. Why can't you do that? Because if we do that, I'll tell you the story. If you do that, it becomes visible to the staffers on Capitol Hill. It's a big enough budget item that people see it. Once it becomes visible to the Capitol Hill staffers, everybody on Capitol Hill knows that this is what the Navy is doing. The DOE will see it. The DOE will say, "No, you can't do that. We have the charter to do fusion." And that's the end of the program. And >> what what Zapperoo, by the way, thank you. We'll get you your dono at the end. But he just said it again. He said, "We can't, sorry, we can't fund $200 million for this." The government came back and said, "We can't fund $200 million for this next phase because the DOE will get wind of it." And they're going to come in and they'll shut it down because we they'll come in and they'll argue that we are the ones that have the charter for fusion. Nobody else is allowed to do fusion. And the Navy will have to argue, well, yeah, we were using it for our propulsion, blah, blah, blah. the DOE will win out because they're the ones at the end of the day to control Fusion. Wouldn't the DOE want fusion to come out? Why would they be against this chat? H why would why would the DOE be against this coming out? Don't they want fusion for the world? They keep saying that they want fusion and energy for the world. Unless I don't want to be conspiracy theorist, but what if they've had it figured out? What if they greedily want to monopolize it for themselves, use it strategically, militarily, and not let anybody else know what? Yes, there it is. The the magic word of the day, national security. That's the secret word of the day, chat. National security. >> They will co-op it and shut the Navy down. So, the Navy hadn't funded us at a low level below the radar screen of politics. And that's exactly what happened. And it's nature. life and and he >> just says it. He's like they had to fund us on a lower level because of politics and that's what happened. >> We are the funding has always been way too small. We had to staff between five and 10 people doing this whole thing for 12 years. >> Chad, is this why is this why Salvador Pais got shut down too? Like is this a similar reason why Sal got shut down? Like anybody that they just know that if you get too close to Fusion, they're just going to shut you down. >> Wave ovens. I mean we we we actually we actually learned all the physics slowly but we learned it all and the engineering problems of course are way beyond those budgets. We couldn't even run the machine steady state. We had to go to these cat banks. Going to small size and cat banks makes the experiments very difficult because you don't have time. You can't build cooling. You can't control the gas flow. We had sub millisecond pulse gas inputs but we couldn't turn them off in time. It's very hard. It's much easier to build a big machine in the sense of the control problems. We need not we I don't need it but whoever does this needs a lot of help. the Chinese and hey fake could probably do it very straightforward. >> Like this is the this is the best part of the whole thing where my man this is like your drunk uncle at the Christmas party. I'm the drunk uncle sometimes. The drunk uncle all of a sudden just starts going like, "Hey guys, okay, we're at the end. You know what? I'm just going to riff. I don't got a lot of time left. Uh you know what? It was Tesla. It was Tesla science all along. Uh we had the physics figured out. You know, they didn't want it. It turns out it's a bunch of politics up at the end. Like, holy crap. Okay. Okay, okay, hold up, Ank. Let me get my second Let me get my second martini. I want to enjoy this. Let me get some mixed nuts. It's It's holiday time. >> You said that a lot of people in some areas are over 70 years old. That seems like a problem. >> The guy just asked him. He's like, "Hey, you guys are all like 70 years old. seems kind of like a problem going forward. >> Yeah. The question is that I made I made a sort of jockular remark that the review panel would probably be people over 70 years old. I don't know that that's true. I'd actually have some people in their 30s on it because I know some very bright guys. The problem is is that engineering schools in nuclear engineering and in physics related physics really don't train people in this field anymore and they haven't for 20 or 25 years because it's an arcane field that doesn't fit modern technology. We've all gone to silicon. We've all gone to microchips and we've all gone to solid state devices and there are very few people who make giant 4 foot high power high power power tubes. It's not like the days of lang. It's an arcane technology quote unquote. Arcane he's talking about and he's saying everyone went on to microchips but what about fusion? We left fusion behind. We left plasma physics behind >> and and Tesla and those guys. This is really back in that world. He literally just referenced Tesla. He said this is literally back in that world of Tesla. You got a guy that worked on the D for the DOE Oakidge who made a working fusion reactor who's sitting here saying this is like Tesla stuff. It's arcane technology and referencing Tesla. It's not that anybody's evil, it's just that there wasn't any market for people like that. So the people who lived through it, I'll give you one example of one of the people I'd like on that review committee. His name is Bob Simons. He was head of research at Varian for years and then he was head of electron lit electron devices here in San Carlos and he's been following this field and working in it for 35 years. Uh he's 86 years old but he's smart as a tech. I mean he comes from another world and there's nobody trained in the schools that you can turn to. I happen to know some good people at San Diego some really bright guys who I would turn to to put on this panel because they think outside the conventional magnetic confinement box. And that's the problem. The box has become so big and so well funded. It supports thousands of people and hundreds of labs all over the world. Everybody for decades has been thinking about next and equilibrium plasmas. And it's very hard to break that mindset. If you live in that box and your income comes from doing research in that box, how do you ever break out of it? Well, I know a few people who do. I know a man at Colum who I would bring in as the director of research from England because he's all at what he's doing. But he's >> cooking cook king. Just keep cooking, King. Keep cooking. Nobody let this man stop talking. He's like, "Hey, these people are stuck in a mindset. They're stuck in a Maxwellian equilibrium plasma mindset. They're not thinking non-M Maxwellian distributions of their plasmas. They're not even thinking about all this. They're not even being trained to think about all of this. This is a man who understands that the ether exists. I've learned enough. I've listened to enough. I'm a good enough judge of character. have listened to enough black project engineers. This is a man that knows that the ether exists. Guaranteed, chat. Guaranteed. >> Working on jet, which has been being studied there for 24 years now. It's a very difficult problem, but but it's a real problem. And I even discussed this with Bob Hirs who's still in Alexandria, as where we would find people. And how do we find people who are credible? Well, I can find a lot of people over 65 who are really credible, who have been brilliant engineers in their lifetimes and who have national and international stature who I would trust and I don't own these guys. They're just friends of mine and and we don't lie to each other and they would tell me what they really think and that's what I want. I want the brightest guys I know to be there to tell me what they really think. Should we go ahead or should we say no, it's too big a risk and why bother? I don't think that's going to be their answer. >> So, he's essentially saying here that we are losing this technology. like he's trying to explain how we lost the technology to go back to the moon, how we lost the technology to make the fog bank material. We're kind of but we're actually kind of good at keeping secrets. Turns out we're kind of good at keeping secrets to the degree where we keep the secrets from ourselves even. We keep the secrets from ourselves. And that's the reason why all these scientists are like over 70 and there was no transition plan. Nobody back in the 50s was like, "Hey, we found the secret magical technologies. We better have a succession plan. Nope. No succession plan. Edward Teller dies, we got nothing. It's just gone. And we brainwashed ourselves intentionally to hide it. Brainwashed ourselves from ever even looking at the science, looking at the physics. We brainwashed ourselves from solving fusion. That's pretty crazy, man. There's a lot of very intelligent people that are stuck and can't think outside the box of equilibrium, plasma, and tokamax. They think that's got to be the answer because they were told to think that. The same way where people are wearing masks today because they were told to wear masks like five years ago and they still won't take them off. There is a direct analogy there. Okay, we're going to skip ahead to the closing speech. One couple other things he says here, I I took some notes. He says there's a rich history of code simulations. And what you're noticing is to do these calculations takes huge databases, huge supercomputers to pull this stuff off. So there's a direct connection between all this research and advancing computer simulations. Advancing computers to be able to do the simulations, to be able to model these interactions and reactions accurately as they're evolving in real time. Yeah. >> So, let's go to the end. He does a little speech here at the end. It's only a couple minutes, I think. Long >> time and you have a lot of money and if there's any serious interest in changing the world on a long time scale, it's not going to return anything in two years. Uh, this may be a place that should should pay some attention to this. Obviously, we need an angel. There are a lot of people in this country who have multi-billion dollars who could fund this at lunchtime. I have no intention of spending my life running around talking to them all. I'm too tired. Uh, somebody if somebody wants to do it, they'll figure it out. If they don't, it'll be in print. It'll be everywhere around the world and I'll give it away. We have the patents on it. Somebody will pick it up somehow. China's a participant in history. >> Pretty crazy, doesn't it? Feel like he's talking to us in the future here. He's like, I have the patents on it. He's like, somebody will pick it up. Even if even if this doesn't happen, he's like, somebody will pick this up eventually. It's out there. I've solved it. It's I've made it public. Oo, creepy. And then he starts talking about China and id here% so they don't want to be thought to be not members of the community but China is at hey fay building some very interesting tokamax of the kind that we were looking at 20 years ago quite apart from it that will beat it to the punch and and I think that we have a lot of a lot of people elsewhere in the world who don't have the same kind of mental constraints that that we have in this country and for all I know that's what will happen I would prefer we would do it in the United States with people like you who have vision and willpower and are excited about things and so would Jim Benson we like to see see Space Dev and Benson Space Company take this thing over and maybe work jointly with whoever else partners with it and go for the space engines. And I as I told no when I was 7 years old my wife was to fly to Mars. It still is. And and these machines can do it because they'll make space engines a thousand times better than anything else. Single stage to Mars in four weeks. H to LEO $25 a kilogram. 76 days to Titan one of the moons of Saturn. It's a very remarkable engine. >> So this is where all that math where people talking about we can get to Mars in one month. This is where that comes from with Plasma Engine. This is who they're referencing, talking about his stuff. Pretty crazy. The people that we have been seeing in the lore about like how would we get to Mars? Oh, here's this crazy idea. It's like the guy we're actually talking about here. Wild. >> I I wish I had a plan. I could tell you what a plan would be. going to all the foundations and all the multi-billionaires the you know the the people who who SpaceX and all those guys Elon Musk and and Jim Bezos and those people but it's too tiring >> Elon >> and I'm tired in that sense I'm talking to people and the problem is the fusion community is so old and so entrenched you always run against them and the immediate question you always get when you talk to people who are not personally themselves do not personally themselves understand the curiosities of the physics and why it will work even though you can tell them it will either they believe you because they know you and they know you don't lie to them or they say well it sounds good but I have to have it vetted by somebody and they don't know where to go to vet it and the first question you always get is how come if it's so good the United States government isn't doing it that's the first question I've had that question in France and other nations that's not unreasonable the answer is very long and tedious and it sounds like sour grapes but it really isn't it's just reality in a private world in a world of private industry where people don't think like government they can understand that you do what you do because it's right and it will work. You try it. It's what you do here, I think. >> Wow. Wow. Get me some more popcorn. We're going to leave it on that. Wow. He says, "What? If it's so good, why doesn't the government do it? If it's so good, why aren't the government just doing it? If they figured out, if they saw this is exactly how the Elon Musks, the rich billionaires think. They think, "Oh, well, if it was so good, I mean, the private world, it would become it would become popularized. People would commercialize it. They would make a lot of money. They would become trillionaires." Elon Musk literally believes this because he says that on Joe Rogan. He said, "They would be competing with me if they had it unless it's sequestered. It's hidden under national security, in which case you get nothing." And so, it's this bureaucratic political mess is the reason. And it's a long complicated story just like he says for why we don't have